episode 279 | Mar 11, 2026 | 123min

The Nature of Second Order Leadership

In this conversation with Marvin Oka we explore neurobehavioral modelling as a lens for understanding change, leadership, and learning, examining the tension between stability and integration, the four types of change, and the cognitive capacities - such as metacognition and generative inquiry - required for second-order leadership. Moving from theory into practice, the episode explores leadership as an emergent property of systems, offering insights into whole-system change, the leadership anchorline, and how leaders and coaches can guide people from inner turbulence toward greater integration, flow, and adaptive development.
The Body Knows the Way Masterclass

Just enter your details — and we’ll send you the latest insights right away.

In this podcast we talk about:

04:15 What is neurobehavioral modelling
09:00 The tension between stability & integration
16:30 Four types of change
22:45 The first requirement of “second order” leaders
28:00 Levels of learning
35:13 Metacognition and meta-metacognition
45:00 Leadership as an emergent property
55:30 The process of generative inquiry
1:05:30 Moving from the theoretical to the practical
1:10:00 Increasing integration and wholeness
1:19:30 Instructions versus “structions”
1:26:00 Destabilization and whole system change
1:34:30 The leadership anchorline
1:44:15 From inner turbulence to flow
1:54:00 Adapting types of coaching to clients

Resources Mentioned:
Gregory Bateson
The fifth discipline, by Peter Senge
Jean Piaget
Kolb’s learning cycle
How minds change, by David McRaney
Noam Chompsky
Almaas 
Heidegger 
Hero’s journey
Steve March
Integral Theory
Authentic Relating
Diamond Approach
Eugene Gendlin
Rupert Spira
Gurdjieff 
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, by Julian Jaynes
Enneagram
Lester Levenson
Byron Katie

About the Guest

Marvin Oka

Marvin Oka is an internationally sought-after consultant and keynote speaker specializing in advanced behavioral change technologies and research. A recognized authority in behavioral modeling, he has helped organizations worldwide - from private enterprises to government agencies - navigate strategic, systemic, and cultural transformation. One of only five people globally to hold the title Certified Master Behavioral Modeler, Marvin was also among the first to become a Certified NLP Master Trainer. Marvin serves as Executive Director of Behavioural Modelling Research Pty Ltd and is a founding Director of the International NLP Trainers Association.

WEBSITE
https://www.behaviouralmodelling.com 
https://www.pcan.online 
https://www.marvinoka.com

About the Host

Joel Monk

Joel Monk is a leadership coach, educator and entrepreneur. He co-founded Coaches Rising, a company on the cutting edge of online coach training with a community of over 65,000 coaches. Coaches Rising programs regularly include participants from every continent on the planet and they have collaborated with some of the leading minds in the field of human development and coaching. Joel is also a leadership coach, coaching at companies such as THNK, Booking.com, Siemens and Naspers. Joel has designed and led several entrepreneurial and leadership development programs, at places such as Socionext, THNK and The Impact Hub Amsterdam.

Share This